Just Ask SK Part 1_stereo
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Welcome to the Gender IQ Podcast. My name is Jess Romeo, and I'm a psychiatric nurse practitioner, psychotherapist, and endlessly curious soul. I'm also a trans guy who specializes in working with queer and trans folks every single day in my private practice. I created this podcast because in a world that seems hellbent on using gender identity as a wedge to divide us, I wanted this to be a space for thoughtful, unfiltered, and nuanced conversations that help us connect with one another.
If you're a healthcare or mental health provider like me, this can help you better understand the complexities of gender identity and support the needs of your trans and gender diverse clients. And if you're a fellow gender outlaw, you might find some of these conversations empowering and helpful to your own journey.
But for everyone, I want this to be a place that showcases playfulness, complexity, and just the messy humanity that we share within a topic that too often seems serious and divisive. So wherever you are on your own journey, I'm glad to have you here. Let's dive in. And welcome to this episode of the Gender IQ Podcast. [00:01:00] I'm so excited to bring this conversation to you. Today we are talking to S. K. Smeagol. S. K. is a non binary creator, educator, author, and activist. They have an Instagram account that has a following of about 134, 000 people and counting. They started this in 2020 after they had top surgery, documenting their recovery process with the hope that just one other person would come across it.
feel seen, and maybe feel more prepared than they did. Since then, they've been offering free daily education about the queer community at large, making their page a safe place for anyone to land and learn. SK's page is about love and meeting people where they're at in their education journey. They are funny, irreverent, endlessly compassionate, but very clear about their values and who they are and what they stand for.
So this is part one of our conversation, and the next episode will bring you part two. Alright, let's get into it. If the internet had a gender, it would be SK's Playground. There's something magic about the way SK plays with [00:02:00] gender. Not in a way that confuses, but in a way that liberates. Through their sharp wit and signature warmth, SK invites everyone, queer, questioning, and cis alike, to approach gender with curiosity.
Humor and ease if you've ever felt the pressure to get gender right or worried that your understanding is behind the times SK's Instagram page is the Internet's coziest permissions to explore So I'm so excited to be talking to them today and to bring this conversation to you Thank you. That was a really, really wonderful intro.
Yeah, well, it really is just a lovely page. Um, and I always like to get to know people like as in depth as they're comfortable with to be able to share that with others. So I know like you grew up as the kid of a conservative state legislator, a reality that seems worlds apart from a lot of the work that you do now.
So what was your relationship to gender and queerness? in that environment. Yeah, I was actually just talking to my partner about this this morning, um, as I was preparing to talk to you today. Um, and it brought back a lot just thinking about [00:03:00] just, yeah, such the, the difference of the way I was raised and the life that I lead now.
Um, so I actually still live in the town I grew up in, which is funny because I'm such a different person. Um, just moved into a brand new home here. But living here as a child, um, really small town about 700 people. Um, it's actually pretty, it's like a nice mix of conservative and more liberal, more open.
Um, but the conservative side is, it's just very small town. It's very farmland. Um, everyone around you is. You know, that kind of mindset of living small, working on farms, that sort of thing. My dad, as you mentioned, worked as a Republican state delegate, uh, for eight years during my childhood. So two, two elections that he was elected.
Um, so he worked at the state Capitol, which meant he was out of the home most of the time when he was living, um, in Annapolis to do the work that he did. Was this when you were like young, Chuck, because I feel like those [00:04:00] eight years. When those eight years happen is important. When I was 7 to 15. Okay, so, like, super aware, very formative, but very you're very aware also evolves with time.
Yes. So he was also an attorney, which was his main job role. So he continued that throughout all of this legislative work that he did. But yeah, so he was elected when I was seven or maybe eight, um, to the Maryland, um, House of Delegates as a conservative Republican. And the thing was, as a child in a home where your parents job, like any other child is what puts food on your table.
It's what allows you to go to dance class and to buy the clothes that you want and go to the movies with your friends. Um, I supported my dad as a person who. Worked hard to pay bills for our family. Um, so all I saw was hard work and, uh, caring deeply about his community and what he believed in [00:05:00] and fighting hard for the things that mattered to him.
I mean, it wasn't until I was older that I started to realize some of those things that he felt so strongly about were things that I. So opposite about, um, and I mean, I guess, 12, 13 years old, you start to have an awareness politically and awareness culturally about what's going on around you. And especially as somebody who's queer, who's neurodivergent didn't have the words for it at the time.
But understanding I was different understanding that I wasn't like. The people in my town or the people around me or my peers, um, or even my family members, I challenged him. I was outspoken. We butted heads a lot. My dad always told me I should be a lawyer because he was like, you argue like a lawyer, but you don't get paid like one.
I could see that. We, we, but we had healthy debate, which was interesting. When I tell people that I was a Republican state delegates kid, it's always like, Oh, like. That probably was really rough. And yes, there were things that were rough, like sitting at the kitchen table, hearing conversations about bills that would legislate my existence away [00:06:00] without me understanding the language of it and who I was.
Uh, but he also worked across party lines a lot. Um, cared about some things that I cared about. So there was nuance. And I think that all of that really led me to be able to educate. Two masses the way that I do now, I have perspective that I think other people don't have that actually really resonates with me.
And I also feel like zooming out from even just the family environment that feels like huge relationship with your dad, but it was happening in a really small town. I've had a lot of conversations with people like this, where if you live in a larger city or even a really big suburb where folks are more anonymous, it's easier to stay in your echo chamber and sort of have fairly fixed viewpoints and not challenge those.
But in a small town, you've got to band together. Like everybody knows one another. It's just not that easy to throw people away. Yeah. Does it ever lead to any conflict with any of your [00:07:00] followers or other creators? Because that nuance, like I see it in your content. I wonder how it lands with some people if you've had those conversations.
Yeah. I think that the way that I approach education and create creation in general is that I'm creating for anyone to pick up that post or that piece of information. And meet them where they're at and let them use it as a starting point. If I'm talking to someone who's quite well versed in gender and the political dynamics of today, um, and this is additional information for them or support for them.
They already know where I'm at, but people generally, it's more of a positive response from people who are like, my dad. Or who are married to people like my dad or who are just ignorant and don't have the knowledge yet because you don't know it. You don't know ignorant with no value judgment just as a statement, right?
Yes, and those people are the people who then follow my page because they feel it's a safe place to learn, which I make very clear. There's a lot of [00:08:00] creators online who are doing queer work who I don't blame them, don't have the time, the patience, or the willingness to meet people who don't already have a basis of knowledge about queerness so that they can expand their knowledge.
That's valid. That's not the work that I do. So generally it's perceived really well, but I mean, I've encountered people who are even extremist for me and in the leftist way that don't appreciate my willingness to meet people who don't know yet. Um. To to help to help guide them through that. Those very 1st step.
Yeah, and again, like, all valid across the spectrum. I think I can have a lot of empathy for that response. I feel like I'm I strive to be somewhat similar, like, being from I'm not from as small a town, but being from the South and having a family that is overwhelmingly conservative. Like, it's, it's just not that easy to take such a hard line and being willing to engage in those conversations.
It feels like, it's not a fixed point, [00:09:00] like it evolves over time as I evolve into more authenticity and healing of my own. I wonder if that, has that shifted for you as well over time, where some things are harder now than they were five years ago, maybe? Sure, there's a healthy mix of both, I think. I think I've said out loud, and I do believe this, I think that if I wasn't queer, I would still be as empathetic and as caring about the world in general as I am now, but my queerness is what made me, um, have These conversations is what made me this advocate.
And I, I don't feel that I have an option, right? I can exist quietly and not have these conversations, or I, I can be honest with myself and the people who love me and who I love and have them. Yes, some things have gotten harder as I've become older, because I do have boundaries that I'm not willing to cross anymore.
Yeah, that's a wall at a certain point and be like, this conversation isn't. Worth my relationship with someone, [00:10:00] um, and I'm not going to be erased or ignored or invalidated to a point. So then the conversation stops. Right. And I have to know that line. When I was younger, I just keep fighting until I cried and it was frustrating and we weren't actually hearing each other.
So maturity has changed that. Um, but yeah, it's more about boundaries. I think now just realizing I have to protect my own piece before anything else. Yeah. A lot of self compassion in that. Did you come to that yourself or did you need support from chosen family or other folks to sort of prompt you to, Hey, like you can respect yourself.
It's okay to not keep engaging. Sure. Um, I think it's important to get that from other people. I think that's why I chosen family, community allyship matters, uh, partners who support you, friends who get you. Um, but I think a lot of it was done on my own, just with my personal circumstances. I went through a couple of relationships where.
I didn't have a partner that fought for me. I didn't [00:11:00] have friends who understood me. So I was very alone and independent in my, you know, advocacy for myself. And I think through those experiences and maturing, like throughout my 20s, I just stepped away from those people, found strength in myself, and then the right.
people, friends, partners came to me from that. That was my personal experience, but I think, um, people who are able to do it through the support of chosen family is ideal. Yeah. I've heard that described. I think this is a Buddhist thing of the process of emotional maturity and leaning into authenticity and self compassion.
It's like meeting your edges and softening. So like just less spiky over time and more spiky over time in some places where I get to be spiky where it matters. And now for a quick word from our sponsors. If you're a healthcare professional, you know that supporting trans and gender diverse patients isn't just about good intentions, it's about a lot more than that.
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All right, back to the conversation. Oh, I did want to ask about, like, your partner and family as much as you're comfortable, because I know [00:13:00] we're both kind of new parents in a way. Yeah, I, um, I moved in with my partner and her two kids, uh, seven days ago, so we're kind of one week marked. We've been together for 2 years.
I've been in the kids lives the entire time, besides the first, you know, initial couple weeks of dating. Um, so it's not anything new for me necessarily, but living in one home definitely is new. I'm used to living alone, so going from just me to me and a partner and 2 kids and a dog and a cat has been an adjustment.
It's a beautiful transition for me. Um, the kids have been wonderful with me from the start with my identity, with who I am. I'm the first queer relationship they've seen their mom in as well. So kids get it though. Like kids, they don't have all the shit that we have. They don't. And this generation is wonderful.
They're, they're a little bit older, they're middle and high school age. So they're aware enough of what's going on to understand the [00:14:00] nuances of our relationship and what that what we're facing. But they've been just a wonderful addition. I'm also a nanny and I've taught kids dance and yoga and all sorts of other things for many years.
So being around kids is nothing new to me, but living with 2 that are now. Mind to help parent is definitely new and exciting. Yeah, I bet it is. How did y'all meet you and your partner? We met on hinge Mm hmm, and it's funny because it was at a time when we both were done dating Like I had deleted all my dating apps besides hinge and I didn't check it Um, I had just been like, single for about 2 years.
Um, and I was like, you know, I'm just going to do this life thing on my own. I'm good. I'm in a really good space. Um, she was doing the same thing and we matched 1 day randomly and we never saw anybody else again. And it just was just. Happened. That's really awesome. Yeah, it just happens in those moments.
Isn't hinge the one that markets itself as like the dating app that's meant to be deleted or something? I think so. That's a pretty good hook [00:15:00] that I remember seeing. I was like, Oh, that's good. That's good for monogamous folks. That's the one. That's the slogan that I'll get. Yeah. Yeah, and see that's also a good example of like my own bias like thanks for saying that because it's just something that doesn't come to me in that moment.
I'm monogamous, but I try to be mindful of other people that I can imagine sitting next to someone who's like poly or open and being like the dating app designed to be deleted. That's not that's not it for me. So, yeah, I can be. Well, I know we've talked about like. Your dad, but I know that early in life, not only your town, but dance was a really big impact on you.
I'm interested both in dance as an exploration of body and gender, and also the ways in which it constricts, too. Sure. Yeah, I actually just wrote a whole, uh, Patreon post about this. Because I have had a lot of people asking similar questions. I have an interesting upbringing. We've already kind of gone over mm-hmm
My political and home life and Yeah. In the way that it was [00:16:00] specific and unique. But I, uh, was the first daughter, air quote, air quote, big air quotes daughter, first girl, cousin first. Any girl that my mom had. Brothers. Yeah. My dad had brothers. Everybody had boys. Um, and then when I was born, um, it was very instantaneous.
This is a girl. She does girl things. I was put in dance at like two years old. Oh, they leaned in hard. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. And now looking back, like I talked to my mom about it very openly. We have a great relationship and she's like, I should have put your brother in dance too. It was never a gender thing.
I just didn't know any better. So we have good conversations now, but I mean, in the nineties, it was just a different time. Like who knew? My mom didn't have the resources, right? So 2 years old girl pink put in dance class and it very quickly became my life. Um, I danced throughout until I was 18. 7 days a week, I would leave school early to go there.
I was really close to being [00:17:00] homeschooled to take my dad's level. Yeah. I would be at the dance studio more than school all day on the weekends. I traveled every single week during the summer to a new state to take a different intensive at a different place. Um, I majored in dance in college. I have a degree in dance.
Um, I danced professionally for a time. So for those who don't know about the dance world, it is one of the most binary. Structured traditionally binary structured, um, art forms or sports that you can be in. It is changing. I've heard that it's changing. It's evolving with the times slowly, but it is for our youth.
I think so many styles when you think a partner dance, especially that literally there is a lead and a follow and that is based on gender roles. And now it is changing. Even the words you use like lead and follow are used now, but before it was. Male and female, like very, and so, yeah, like that's in like, you know, ballroom salsa, uh, things like [00:18:00] that.
I took ballet tap jazz, modern contemporary hip hop point work. Um, those styles, especially the ballet world from the time you're two years old, the boys wear black, the girls wear pink girls hair has to be longer than shoulder length to pull back in a bun. Boys hair has to be above the ears so that when they're on stage, you can tell they're a boy costuming, uh, even the, the boys up until age, like 12 have their own class because they want the boys to feel comfortable to go to dance.
Cause it's a girl thing, like, it's just so gender and I didn't know any better. So divergent person too, it was interesting because looking back dance taught me how to emote your teacher would sit you down and say, make this face. This face means this emotion, and I think I'm so well masking sometimes or high masking in situations.
People wouldn't know I'm neurodivergent because I was taught how to emote very specifically that [00:19:00] makes sense. Yeah. Especially at that level. Yep. Very, very specifically. And it ties back to gender as well. And that I was trained how to play a role. Um, so I think it made me mask gender. Gender. Gender. And.
neurodivergence until a much later age than I would have, um, without being literally guided on how to do it. That makes a ton of sense to me, knowing so many neurodivergent queer and trans folks and the ways in which some of these roles both taught them how to fit in and not get Seen as some sort of standout, but that is its own prison as well, that you learn over time.
Yeah, and at the time it was such a safe place for me. It was the first place I was exposed to queerness without even realizing it. I met a lot of queer people through the dance world, especially gay men. Lots of gay men in the theater world. Dance world that I was in and while it wasn't talked about, it was exposure that I understood and it, it's just this innate feeling of [00:20:00] knowing there were adults who were like me.
Um, so I, I am so thankful for it in so many ways that it made me the successful driven, hardworking person I am. It gave me exposure, but it also quite literally created boxes for me to fill in and created a scenario where. I was praised by the adults around me when I performed, literally, the gender and the emotions that they asked me to do.
So my life became a performance, and there was a really hard line that I had to, like, differentiate later of what was I taught? Who am I? Which was an interesting thing I didn't get to discover until my mid twenties because I was dancing Professionally still into my twenties and I would imagine it's still unfolding like it is for any of us.
Sure. It's ever evolving Yeah, what were some of those first steps into kind of shedding some of those layers? I can imagine a big haircut as you can imagine that as a symbol. Yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna say I [00:21:00] remember The first time I had hair lower than my shoulders my whole life, because literally told you cannot cut it above your shoulders.
If it doesn't fit in a bun will not be casted and you won't you won't perform, which is what I love to do. So I kept it long, kept it long throughout college. If you were casted, you had to ask permission from. One of the choreographers, if you could even dye your hair, let alone cut it, uh, because you were their artistic property.
But when I stopped dancing professionally, I was teaching full time teaching dance. And I remember I was teaching to a room full of toddlers and I was probably 23, 24. Um, and I remember like leaning over and my hair just kept falling out of my ponytail and I was like tucking it back. And I said, I'm just going to shave my head tonight.
And then I had this moment where I was like, I can. I can do that. And I swear to you, I went home to my bathroom and I took out clippers because I had an undercut because I thought that was like a nice. Oh, yeah, that's like the compromise. Yeah. I have just the tiniest undercut. [00:22:00] I took out my clippers and I just from the front to the back shaved my head and I said, okay, never had a shorter haircut.
Never had anything above here. I just shaved my head in my bathroom and it was the most liberating thing. I had never done that was like my first step of like, I have control of my body. This is like consent and autonomy. Yeah, that's a really Yeah, that's so powerful. And I think so many people like cis and trans, you know, to be queer, like, to be queer, to be clear, can all relate to, I know crystal queer could relate to a moment of freedom.
Yeah. Like that. Cause I, I don't know. I feel like I've described this to people sometimes because first of all, it's when people talk about the choice or decision to take steps towards gender affirmation or towards transition, like whatever word makes sense to the person, there's this sense mostly from CIS folks, but I think internalized transphobia can play this role too of [00:23:00] thinking I must be 100 percent certain to be able to take that step.
And I don't know, I find that. I'm rarely a hundred percent certain about anything. The closest I can get is about 90 and the other 10 percent are only going to come after I make the decision. That's how I'm going to know. And so I see like things like that, a change in hairstyle or just something that is a radical shift.
It's only after doing that that you can really assess, okay, how does this feel? Does this feel right for me? Am I freer or more me? Exactly. I tell people that in calls a lot. I have one on one calls with people about preparing for gender affirming surgery or just like gender exploration. And a lot of people's like, number one concern is, will I regret this?
And what if I do? And whether it's a haircut, whether it's coming out, whether it's using different pronouns or getting top surgery, I say, well, what, what if you don't do it? Will you [00:24:00] regret that? And then you always see this like light bulb of like, it's the same thing. If I do it, I might regret it. If I don't, I might regret it.
And I think, um, yeah, it's, it's the, the thing, the like narrative that's pushed on us that we have to be 100 percent sure to do anything limits us. It limits all of us from, from taking leaps of. Getting closer to who we really are. I'm really curious. So like your work, it's really funny. It's like deeply funny, but I know and a lot of other queer folks know that like humor is often born out of tension, out of pain or just the absurdity of all that.
Yeah. Has humor saved you? Helped you process the heavy stuff or what? How do you relate to that? I know that a lot of my work comes across funny, lighthearted, like jabbing at something, poking fun. Um, that's just me. That's just how I cope. I don't think I ever made a conscious decision to use [00:25:00] humor to navigate queerness or navigate neurodivergence or navigate just identity in general.
I think that it's just been something that it comes naturally and I think that that is Okay, I think sometimes people get really serious about gender, especially people within the community, because it means so much to them. Right? And they're, they're fighting against an oppressor. They're fighting against internal oppressors and external oppressors.
And it's like. You can fall into a trap of being so serious all the time. Um, I've been there, but I think being able to just take a step back and and find light and joy and humor, even in the bad stuff is what's going to get you through. Like, we can't. Bog ourselves down with just total seriousness at all times.
There's room for that, but like, we gotta, we gotta play. Yeah, yeah, there's got to be joy after revolution, right? Yeah, yeah. I [00:26:00] like, which is your favorite series? Because I'm a little bit stuck on the new non binary names drop additions or Name your gender, but only through license plates or t shirts. Like, do you have a favorite?
Cause I love all of them. Yeah, no, I definitely, those are all just like, just for fun ones that I've done. Like the license plates, I have the whole family now, like my partner's daughter and my partner will like, look for license plates for me and send them to me. That's great. People are like, do you find these online?
And I'm like, no, I literally, they're all the same state. If you look at them, I just take those pictures with my phone. It's just for fun. Again, like I said, it's lighthearted. So I do like to do those ones and like, I'll do ones where I go to thrift stores and take pictures of different shirts and be like, choose your gender.
Um, those are just to bring joy, but I think my true favorite, um, is my erasure poetry, which is taking the, just the hate that I get, screenshotting the most interesting and nuanced ones, maybe the longer ones that have a little more meat to them. And then letting. It [00:27:00] started as just me, but then letting my followers also transform them into poetry and messages of love for the queer community.
That brings me the most joy, for sure. That's really great to know because it does feel like the piece of your content that Goes the deepest that is the most impactful so many people. Do you remember the first post you got? Do you remember how that started? Sure. So I had seen erasure poetry from many other people for many years I studied erasure poetry in college.
So 10 12 years ago. Um, I also remember somebody let me borrow a book. I believe it was by Kate Bear. Um, and it was erasure poetry from anti feminist emails that she had received. So I remember that was the first thing that sparked for me. We don't just have to make erasure poetry out of found items like pages from a book or [00:28:00] whatever.
It can almost be this like revolutionary act of creating love. So I took that as inspiration, and I remember going through my feed that day and finding dozens of, you know, hateful messages and saying, maybe if I just do this as a personal practice, this will help me because at that time, I didn't have a way to navigate the hate comments I was receiving.
Yeah, so I decided I would do it for myself. And once I had an album on my phone, literally just for me to reflect on and look at, I had about 40 and I said. Maybe I'll just take these and share them sometimes and other people will find the same sort of joy out of it that I did. I did that for about a year and it did so well that I then invited weekly submissions for other people to submit their poems and actually take part in it as well, which is what it has evolved into and has become a consistent series on my page.
It really is a beautiful series and I think I did pick [00:29:00] a post on your page just to kind of show listeners because they're not necessarily going to be looking at your page. Sure, yeah. And one you did recently is, is not quite as hateful. So I don't really have to give a strong transphobia warning. Some of them are much more hateful.
Yeah. This one's on the mild end. So this is an example of what the hate erasure poetry looks like. First, I would describe The sort of, uh, the slide where you describe what it is. So on his case page, they say every so often I choose a particularly interesting hate comment from my page and offer my followers a chance to turn it into poetry in the ultimate act of self and community care.
Here's the beauty. They created this go round. So we've got the original post says, I think the main point is why do kids need to choose an identity? Can't they just be kids first and foremost? We wouldn't tell a kid they are gay, if we thought they might be when they grow up. We can show them love and let them figure themselves out.
If the medicalization of children wasn't on the line, I would be for the pick your own gender idea. But no minor can consent to being [00:30:00] sterilized and being a lifelong patient. That's the original hate comment. And the responses The first one here on this next slide says The main point is love. I think the main point is, why do kids need to choose?
Can't they just be kids first and foremost? We can show them love and let them pick their own gender. And then I'll just do one more. The main point is, kids need love. Let them be. Right. It's just beautiful. It is, and I'm glad you chose that one. I wanted to say that specific comment that I chose actually got mixed feedback from my community.
I had people who usually really like the series say that that comment specifically wasn't hateful enough to be chosen for this series. I think so. I think it was. It was a more mild. Um, response and it actually probably came from someone who was more ignorant than they were hateful and I reminded people in the comments during that one that not [00:31:00] every, uh, comment I choose is one that is directly rooted in like hatred and just like, yeah.
The, um, words and language, some of them really are just taking a misunderstanding and creating something more understood. Um, and I just wanted to mention that because I do think there is an important distinction between hate and ignorance. Um, but they're called hate common arrangement poetry because I've had this series for three years.
Um, I'm not going to rename myself here, right? But this could be someone who came to my page and. Has never seen this before and was like, that's not a hate comment, but it is interesting even from the people within the community sometimes have a strong or visceral reaction to this, to this love and this, like, recreation and I think that's valid.
And I think that's a learning experience. I tend to receive. A really large amount of hate and death threats and really, really bad stuff on the internet. But I've opened myself to that, knowing it's a possibility as a creator. [00:32:00] And then there's people who receive this by scrolling through their feeds who've never received that personally.
So it can feel very victimizing personally to folks. Um, so it's an interesting practice to, to allow yourself to open up to this hate and see what you can do with it. But I'm glad you chose that one because that one got some, some interesting feedback on my page. And it is, it's just incredibly thoughtful the way that you have.
curated it because you do have that slide one is always an introduction to what this is slide one never has The actual hate comment on it. So people could see it in their scroll you get to opt in So like just consent and art and beauty and love it's just all over. Yeah All right, y'all that's it for today's episode.
Thanks for being here. You can find SK's information on instagram at just say SK And show notes, transcripts, links, and other info is at MyGenderIQ. com slash podcast. If this conversation sparked something for you, please take a second to rate, [00:33:00] review, and subscribe wherever you listen. It's a small action that makes a really big difference, helping more people find these conversations in a time when we really need more of them.
If you want to keep the conversation going, come hang out with me on Instagram at The Gender Mentor. And until next time, remember, if we were meant to live in boxes Closets wouldn't have doors. So take a breath, live your truth the best you can, and take up all the space you need. I'll see you next time.
